Cost of Living if Considering an Extended Stay in the UK

[Lisa in Ottawa]

I recently hosted guests for a week and the converstion invariably got round to costs here vs home. How do people afford to live here? Unless you work in finance or are an exec the salaries aren't great yet housing for example, is astronomical.

I honestly don't know how to answer these questions. Putting aside housing, a biggie I know, you have to make sure you're comparing apples with apples. The pound is high against our $ so in order to get the price of an item as it will affect my bank account I multiply by 2. But does that translate to a true price if you're actually living here?

While in Oxford and while our guests were with us, we've treated ourselves by eating lunch out frequently. We don't go to chain restaurants but to small independently owned(hopefully) pubs and cafes. If we lived here we probably wouldn't do that as much.

Example, last Sunday we had lunch at one of the nicest restaurants in Oxford. My guest had the roast lamb. It was huge and came with side vegetables. The cost 16 pounds. Afterwards, she said to me, she would never pay $32 for lunch at home. Well, true you probably wouldn't but Sunday roast in a unique restaurant in Oxford isn't the same., is it?
We had tea and 2 scones at a small inexpensive pub and I think that came to 4 pounds. We could have spent 3x as much in a more upscale place for high tea. Something I have no interest in doing.

Now for the more mundane. Groceries. It depends on where you shop. As we are only 2 and I like to support local growers and producers and if possible buy organic, I can't speak for people with a different lifestyle. On the surface, prices seem comparable or less expensive than home but when I multiply by 2 mmm.
A pint of beer at a small pub is about 2 pounds I think.

I also shop at Midcounties Co-operative and M&S. The former is a mid level( I guess) chain. M & S caters to many peple but seems to mostly have prepackaged goods in small quantities. It hops with multi generation shoppers. I haven't been to the shops on the eastern side of the city. They tend to be cheaper altho I think the chains would have the same prices. Many people order online and get home delivery so that would probably be cheaper.

I'll share my latest bill from The Co-op. Price is pounds. I can't find the symbol on my computer.

1 litre milk .89
1 loaf rye bread 1.29
1 small brown rice. 1.25
240 grams cheddar(house brand) 2
The milk seems cheaper than at home. The bread is a smallish loaf.

A pair of nice jeans at M&S were 35 pounds. Multiply by 2, still not too bad.
There are wonderful charity(2nd hand shops) very reasonably priced where you can get stupendous deals.

If you are 60 and a resident, you ride public transit free. As a visitor, it's pretty expensive. Museums with the exception of special exhibits are free.
Oxford is a well heeled city near London so I think prices are generally higher. But I don't know if food would be more costly here than elsewhere.

Soooo, I don't have a definite answer. Housing is a biggie. The rest....
What have others found? How do prices compare to France or Italy? Keep in mind the euro is down against the pound.

 

[Pauline]

The GBP sign is ALT 0163. I have a British keyboard now and it and the Euro are on the keyboard. £$€

Daily life here is more expensive us than in the US.

- We hardly ever have meals out. The occasional lunch out. Afternoon tea out a few times a year. But this suits us fine because of the way we eat. We have always done most of our own cooking.
- Petrol is expensive, but we only fill the car once a month. We don't do that much driving.
- Retired people ride free on buses only, not trains, not the underground, and it is when you reach official retirement age. Steve was able to get a bus pass when we arrived because it was age 60 for him, but I have to wait until I am 67 because the retirement age is rising. And only buses in England. It costs me over £2.00 to take the bus from Stroud to Painswick - a 10 minute ride.
- Trains are very expensive from Stroud to London unless you purchase more than a month ahead. To go off-peak buying your ticket on the day of travel is £44.50 - £55.50 return. Nearly £100 ($160 USD!!) for the two of us to have a day in London. If I booked a month ahead I could get a return for £28.
- Clothes are more expensive here. I buy boring things from Land's End and wait until they have a sale.
- Groceries seem more expensive but I have not bothered to figure it out exactly.
- Computer things are much more expensive.
- We pay a little more tax here, as well as paying in the US. We deduct the amount paid in the US, so you are not paying tax twice.
- Our first year of car insurance was high, but each year it has been lowered.
- Utilities don't seem that much higher than what we paid in Santa Fe.

When buying things here remember that a nearly %20 VAT is added to many things and not paid after, as in the US. The price you see is the price with tax included.

The most expensive thing here is housing. Brits move to France and Spain because they can get much more house and land for their money. People who bought houses here 15 years ago are the lucky ones. Back then housing was reasonable (except in London).

There is a great wealth divide here. There are people who have amazing amounts of money, but many live simply on low wages or pensions. The state pension here is not as high as social security in the US.

But it is the strong pound that makes everything expensive for us. When we were here in 2008 trying to decided to move here, the pound was over $2 USD. We decided against moving here. When we did move in 2010, it was $1.50 USD. During the 4+ years we have been here it has moved between $1.45 and $1.65.

On the plus side: I save $400 - $500 per month with not having to pay for medical insurance.

Travel from here is cheaper and we can do short trips to the continent instead of doing a one to two month trip each year like we used to do.

It would be interesting to see a real comparison. I will put together my utility bills and post them so we can compare.

 

[Lisa in Ottawa]

mm ALT 0163 d0es nothing for me. just a blank.
Yes, trains are very expensive. Better to travel by bus. The cost of bus to London is less than 1/2 the train. Sad.
I honestly don't know how young families manage b/c as I said, salaries are not high.
I think it would be very difficult to live here on say a Canadian pension. You would have to live pretty close to the bone.

We've been treating our stay as a bit of an extended holiday. Going out for a meal or a drink also gives us the opportunity to be around other people. The pubs and cafes are lively and we get to observe and feel part of the social scene. The extended good weather has also meant we could sit outside and have a drink and nibblies and before you know it, you've spent more than you'd like.

We have vat at home but it's added on afterwards so when you buy an item or have meal out, the true cost is hidden. I prefer it this way. In addition, there is the expectation you leave at least a 15% tip in restaurants of any kind.

I think a real comparison rather than an anecdotal one would probably need to come from a national or international organisation that does cost of living comparisons.

 

[Pauline]

Hold down the ALT and while held down type 0163 - all numbers. It is how you do special characters not on the keyboard.

£

 

[Lindy]

Wow, Pauline & Lisa you both beat me to the punch. As previously mentioned we have considered moving back to the UK several times over the past few years. In fact I lived in London back in the early 70's for almost a year, and we both went back late 70's for 1 1/2 yrs. And have been back and forth several times since. Not sure if it was just my imagination, but did notice significant changes this time. DH is a Brit and has family near Gatwick. We revisited with them this past trip and of course the idea of moving back was brought up. Even before we delved into details we were disillusioned.

Although we were only there for a very short time, we took notice of many of the things that each of you have touched on, and were just short of being shocked. There was the odd thing whether clothing or food items that worked out well pricewise but overall we seriously had to wonder how people survived. We didn't look into typical salaries, as they wouldn't apply to us, but did note that in a news story a hospital worker only made 17,000 pounds a yr. I'm not quite sure how that equates to a similar position in Canada, but at first glance seems to be horribly low. We watched while SIL did a grocery shop, a couple of hundred pounds-the kids/grandkids are often at their place. At every meal there was a large selection of crackers, cheeses & chutneys, no matter the number of guests. Not sure our pension $$ would allow for that. We also found restaurant/pub meals expensive and tended to do the grocery store thing and pick up picnic kind of stuff. Where we had access to kitchen facilities we took advantage of fully/partially prepared meals that needed just a bit of heating up. We were pleasantly surprised at the quality and the reasonable prices. Wine prices were very palatable (pun intended) We are not beer drinkers as such but did notice that pretty much every grocery order that went thru' the till included cans of beer. A spirit lifter?

As far as clothing is concerned we noted and were told in fact that the charity shops are the open secret and there are MANY in any city/town. Although, the idea of someone else's shoes is not overly appealing.

The housing prices(we checked out the estate agent windows) as you both have indicated are certainly higher (depending of course on where in the country) unless you were able to find a council house and gussy it up. But I suspect those have all been snatched up by now. We have heard in the past that mortgages can pass thru' the families, father to son so to speak. Perhaps this has a bearing on ownership, if still the case. It's no wonder that there are large UK communities in France & Spain! In fact one BIL did exactly that several years ago.

To get away from the everyday, we found the pricing in travel ads to be somewhat similar, but like here, there is always a way to find cheaper fares. It appears that many Brits do travel, whether short or longhaul. Jewelry whether large or small $$$$$$. Didn't have the opportunity to check out household items.

We had a similar conversation with a gentleman whose mother lives here on the Cdn west coast. He is encouraging her to return citing various freebies for seniors. No luck as yet.

Well this all sounds very down and out. Where are the positives? Surely there have to be many as the populace of the UK has not fled the country. I want to point out here that we thoroughly enjoyed our time in Britain, Wales and Ireland, and will do so again. Perhaps Jonathon, Kathy & Felicity can add their 2 pence worth.

Like you, Pauline, all our past trips to Europe have been long to take advantage of distance and costs, but it has become wearing to say the least. Breaking up the journey before crossing the Atlantic makes some sense. We certainly do not want to give up travelling to and in Europe anytime soon.

Perhaps a holiday let for several months in the quieter period is the answer. There is still a lot of the UK we want to discover and experience.

We've only commented on the UK. How have other members coped in other countries? Another interesting conversation? Italy is probably not the best place to set up housekeeping at the moment.

Note: this whole conversation is based on using the Cdn and US exchange rates and the buying power of those currencies both at home and overseas. So it is a bit lopsided, at best especially when tax issues are not considered.

Look forward to other comments.

 

[Lindy]

Look at what we just found----numbeo.com. A comparison of pricing between many countries from valid sources. Even compares cities within a country. Interesting - confirming some of the comments we've have just been making.

 

[Pauline]

I think a good first step if anyone is thinking of moving to England is to spend 2 or 3 months here. We did this in the winter of 2008 (January - February) because we wanted to see what winter was like. And we wanted to start looking for a long term rental.

In the end we did not look for a long term rental because the pound was very high against the dollar and I think we were not ready to move.

We did another trip for 6 weeks the next year and it was the year after that, 2010, when we moved here. It was a difficult decision for both of us to leave the US and I think that is why it took us so long.

We have been here 4 1/2 years and are renting. We still own our house in Santa Fe. Our next decisions will be - are we staying and do we buy a house here. Renting has worked out well for us because we got to live in 3 very different houses. A semi-detached old stone cottage, a row house in a renovated mill and now a remodeled 1950s bungalow. We have rented all in the same area because we really like this area, but renting would give us the flexibility to try other areas.

Housing is expensive and London is out of the question for most people, but in the smaller towns away from London, in the south west, there is a variety of housing. Those lovely detached stone cottages with large gardens are staggeringly expensive (£700,000+), but if you bring down your expectations there are many options even in the Cotswolds.

Houses are smaller here than in the US. We have always lived in a small house (1400 square foot house in Santa Fe for 20 years) - but they are even smaller here. The house we are in now is 1100 square feet and is a nice size.

One thing to remember. When you rent you pay the council tax, which is like house tax. So add another £100 - 200 per month to the rent.

 

[Pauline]

I have a few posts on my blog about our move to the UK.

A Year in England

My Daily Life from a Different Angle

American Small Town vs English Village

Four Years in England

 

[Panda]

I have never heard of an inherited form of mortgage here ('father to son') and I think I have seen most variations. The usual term is 25 years - we paid ours off this month, so whoop, whoop ! Belt a little looser. On the senior travel concessions: as they are funded by the local authority, they vary in terms and conditions around the country. My husband qualified last year for the London area one (60+ Oyster,colloquially called the Boris card in reference to our Mayor) which gives him free bus travel at any time, and free Tube and London zones railway after 9.30. He is very happy with it, as he varies his travel time into work and saves a chunk of money.

For travel elsewhere, the Senior Railcard (60+)is a paid for discount card, £30 a year( - he paid £70 for a 3 year one ) which gives 1/3 off all fares including Standard, Advance and even First Class (with only London andSouth East peak morning times excluded) My daughters both have 16-25 Railcards giving them discounts so I am the only family member without an age related discount card !

 

[Pauline]

Thanks for the details @Panda . That is a great deal that your husband gets! We don't get much savings with Steve's bus pass, but at least it is something. I should get him a senior rail pass.

 

[Lindy]

First off, to Panda, congrats. A big party to celebrate the burning of the mortgage papers?

Well, I started out today with good intentions of getting back to a quilt I started before we left on our trip. After all we had an extra hour today! I did get some done, my back started to talk back to me, so I went to the computer. BTW, I found some fabric in a tiny quilt shop at $6.00 less than I would have paid here. Yeh!! Checked in at Sloweurope and have just finished reading your several blogs, Pauline. While I had almost decided that perhaps a move back was not the best idea, I have now have had a second thought or two, except for the walks/hikes (just not our cup of tea). But that is definitely not all that England is! And for the two of us there is still much to discover. A return to Cornwall and the Cotswolds are two on the list and we're just back from both.

While a 3 month stint would have the holiday feel about it, if one were to use it doubly as that and an experiment at working to see if overall, a move could be feasible, it certainly would clarify things. Knowing costs as we do now, and using Numbeo.com & other such sites as further references the outlook & outcome should/could be entirely different. You, Steve & Buddy put a whole lot of thought, effort and planning into your move.

The ability to get to Europe with such ease is a huge plus. It's interesting that for any number of Canadians & Americans that we have spoken with over the years, they tend to go to the other side of the pond because we are enchanted with the smaller cities, older cathedrals, battle grounds etc. Europe is tiny & compact not like the overall spaciousness of either Canada or the US. History, fabulous architecture and craftsmanship are things we find fascinating, especially as each of our countries are so new. We tend to tear down and build new, whereas history in whatever form is generally treated with much respect in Europe. Smaller homes/apts make sense. The space we supposedly need here is in many cases way out of line. We live in a 1200 sq ft one level home with a backyard just big enough to take the mower over a couple of times. It suits us just fine.

And of course, there are the food offerings, but that is a whole other topic! I have yet to find a half way decent pate here.

So, obviously this issue needs a good deal more study, now that the shock of pricing has had it's levelling effect.

Any thoughts/comments greatly appreciated.

 

[Lisa in Ottawa]

A couple of more thoughts... the charity shops( we would call them 2nd hand) are amazing! And everywhere. You can certainly get some good deals. But I wouldn't want to rely on them. Ex, I wanted a pair of boots for an event. Of course I left mine at home. At 4pm 3 hours prior to the event, I cycled to my local Oxfam shop. There I discovered a pair of black suede boots( real suede not that nubuck stuff). Ok, not my size( a little large), not my style(pointy toed, very fancy) but what the heck. They were 40 pounds.
When I returned home , I looked up the brand. (LK Bennet) Mmm never heard of them but a quick search on the internet and I discovered why. Waaay out of my league. These boots retail for over 500 pounds!

I wore them to the event and in London but will probably give them back for resale and make someone else happy.

Lindy, you have more reasons to try a move here than most. You're husband is a British citizen with family. I think most working and middle class folk have a different expectation of savings in the bank than we do in Canada. Young people both in NA and Europe live day to day with short term contracts, no real job security or prospects of home ownership. I think any disposable income is readily spent on clothing, alcohol and meals out.

Again, very anecdotal observations. It was 1/2 term and the streets, cafes, clothing shops, etc filled with families and young people. In London as well. If these were tourists, they were British ones.

 

[Pauline]

I agree the charity shops are good here. One of the benefits of living in a posh area is the very good finds in the charity shops. Even Painswick has a charity shop.

We had to furnish a house after we spent our first 1 1/2 years in a furnished rental and moved to an unfurnished one. We bought a few good things, some IKEA things (mostly those inexpensive wire shelves) and some second hand furniture and charity shop things.

I was lucky to get several paintings from a friend who had plenty and was tired of some of them, so we have nice artwork on the walls. She will want them back at some point, but I am hoping she forgets that I have them

I was amazed at how we were able to put together a whole house of furnishing quickly. If we do get our things shipped from the US, there won't be any room for them.

 

[Pauline]

... While a 3 month stint would have the holiday feel about it, if one were to use it doubly as that and an experiment at working to see if overall, a move could be feasible, it certainly would clarify things.

Our first year here felt like a holiday. Steve was newly retired, I was not working and all we did was explore the Cotswolds and hike. Plus a few trips to Europe.

When we moved here, it was only for 5 months. Half way through we decided to stay for a year. And then we just stayed. We had our house in the US rented to friends and they were happy to stay.

The proximity to Europe for someone who loves to travel in Europe is a huge benefit of being here. Eventually we will work up the courage to take our UK car to the continent, making the travel even cheaper. And there is a lot to explore on this left-side driving island.

 

[Panda]

Charity shops have been through a massive change in the past decade. They used to be very cheap, stuffed to the gills with items and manned entirely by volunteers. Now many ( not all) have changed their business model. They will accept nearly everything but only the very best is put out in the shop, with other clothes going to by-the- ton used clothing/fabric dealers . The shops are smarter - one near me is like an up market boutique - and run by paid managers, with volunteer helpers. Prices are much higher, though they turn over quickly and reduce within a couple of weeks.

I am not wealthy, but certainly don't rely on them for my main clothing - I use them like many others, popping in to see if someone's mistake/occasional wear is my gain. Fantastic for evening clothes, for instance or occasion wear - I have a lovely LK Bennett ( as mentioned by Lisa) from one that would have cost x20. My newly graduated daughter just added to her working wardrobe with a smart, tailored dress for the same price. When I donate, I judge whether the condition us such that I would buy - if not, it goes into one of the recycling bins that are found in most towns/ neighbourhoods near the paper/ glass ones.

There are also Nearly New shops, that are agencies really - designer, last season items that people submit on sale on sale or return, with a 30% ish commission charged.

For new, I mostly buy from Marks & Spencer (large reliable chain) with more special items from the department stores. The clothing departments of the larger supermarkets have some gems - Sainsbury's £12 swimming costumes are as good as more expensive brands.

I think thinking exchange rate can skew perception - last time we were in North America (US and Canada) a couple of years ago we were startled at how expensive clothing was and how steep the prices seemed to be in the supermarkets !

 

[Pauline]

I think people live more economically here than in the US. I know that I do!

We bought a (used) smaller car (VW Golf - not considered small here) that gets good mileage.

Living in the country we never seem to need "good" clothes, so that saves money. I get clothes at Landsend.co.uk. Their prices for the same item are higher than in the US, but they have frequent sales, so I wait for them. I shop and M&S too. I treated myself to a new winter coat last year from House of Fraser (a but more upscale). Since we do so much walking, a lot of our clothing is from the local outdoors shop.

Our main activity, walking, is free! There are many local concerts, etc. that are inexpensive.

 

[Lindy]

One thing is missing in this conversation. When a visitor is in a new country, store windows are the first indication of pricing, along with print and TV ads. These are naturally compared to costs of the country in which the visitor resides. Add to this exchange rates and immediate comparisons are hugely skewed. However, a local from wherever will not consistently shop in these locations but will know where to find a better buy. This, of course, will come from residing in and sussing out the best buys in their chosen location. It will have a definite effect on how costs are perceived.

Pauline, Lisa & Panda, you have all proved this point.

Thanks to you all for providing a more realistic & helpful approach to finding a solution to this dilemma. Positives are wonderful reassurances in the decision making process.

cheers

 

[artnbarb]

Pauline, on your blog last year you said you hoped to make a decision about returning to the U.S. by your 5th anniversary in England, which will be in May - less than 4 months from now! Do you still plan to make a decision, or do you think you'll just stay in England as long as it's working for you? What would be your reason(s) to return?

 

[Pauline]

I always thought that if we got 5 years in the Cotswolds out of all this, I would be happy. And it looks like we will get that. I love this area and the time here has been wonderful. We have done a lot of hiking, some travel within the UK and good travel to the continent - all things we wanted to do during our stay here. Our daily life is fun.

We are now very used to living in the UK. The driving is easy, we understand what we can expect for renting a house or purchasing one (we are still renting), I have my British citizenship (claimed because my mother was born here) and Steve should get his this year (claimed through me). We lived in 2 towns in the same area - Nailsworth and Painswick (two different places in Painswick). We have lived in an old cottage, a converted historic mill and a remodeled 1950s bungalow - a nice variety of styles. We would happily rent the bungalow we are in for a few more years.

I feel like our life has been Musical Chairs and now the music has stopped and this is the chair we found. Or is it? I might be ready for another round of music.

We were thinking Painswick was the place but last week something changed that - the government over-rode local objections and a large incinerator is going to be built 4 miles west of us (prevailing winds are from the west and south-west). We know we can't live the way we want to live and be pollution-free, but I didn't come all this was to end up 4 miles from an incinerator. It won't be built for 2 to 3 years, but now we are thinking about other areas in England - the Dorset coast or south Devon coast.

There are many reasons why it would be good for us to go back to the US, and I don't rule out returning, but I think we are in the UK to stay. So my answer is "just stay in England as long as it's working for you".

Reasons to return to the US:
- I loved living there. We lived in the US for 20 years. We are originally from Vancouver, Canada and left in the late 80s, traveled in the US and Europe for a few years, then settled in Santa Fe, NM.
- Day to day living in the US is less expensive and our income is in US dollars.
- We both really miss going to Hawaii. It is too far to go from the UK. We need to find a substitute winter vacation place.
- Avocados from California taste really good.

Reasons to stay in the UK:
- I love living here.
- The walking trails are the best we have found anywhere and walking is our big passion. We can walk a variety of trails where we live, or drive out for 30 - 45 mins for many more trails. We can walk in woods, in valleys, along rivers, through fields, to beautiful villages - it never gets boring.
- I like living in a small town and I think the small towns are nicer here. Because it is so densely populated you can get from your small town to another or to a bigger town easily.
- I like doing shorter trips to Europe. From the US we did 6 to 10 week trips, once a year, because the jetlag always hit us hard, so it was easier to do one long trip. Now we can do easy 2 week trips a few times a year.
- There is something about having a cup of tea in England. It tastes better here than anywhere else.

When we moved from Canada to the US in the late 80s, we completely cut our ties with Canada. Not so easy with the US. We still own a house there, have our "things" there, have bank accounts and credit cards. My Kindle is still attached to my US account. We have to file US taxes (and will always have to). Even if we do stay in the UK, we will still have a strong tie to the US.

Thanks for asking! It made me think about it.

 

[Pauline]

There has been a lot in the news lately about the cost of heating a house. The average cost for heating a 3 bedroom house (this will be small - around 1200 square feet) is £1000 per year ($1500).