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Schengen -- Extended Travel

Alpinista

100+ Posts
The Schengen Agreement says "No more than 90 days in any 180 day period" and the resources I've found on line seem to be very explicit that you count those 180 days from the first day in a Schengen area country to the end of your stay and that it does not matter if you exit/enter during that time period -- the 90 day limit is cumulative.

We were at the Italian embassy in DC last week to pick up Codice Fiscale cards and we asked a representative there the question about the 180 day period and her response was that there is a "rolling time period" which implied the time reset on every new entry. I'm going to sarcasm mode here, but I've never been led astray by Italian officialdom when dealing with matters of maintaining our house, property, taxes, mail, garbage collection, or any other municipal function, so why should I doubt her?

In all past years, we have never exceeded 90 days in country, but are planning to be there this year for two months in May/June and another two months in September/October. Before we get taken aside when exiting the country in October, would welcome input from anyone with experience in extended stays in Italy. I've already talked to a member of this site (Vico Girl) whose thought was, "I do it all the time. Don't worry about it", but she's a New Yorker by birth and we all know what NYrs think about other people's rules ;-)
 
Here's an anecdote that highlights your skepticism. Two years ago, friends of ours started to hike the Camino de Santiago but, on the very first day hiking from France into Spain, one of them slipped on the rain-soaked trail and broke her leg. As a result, they were waylaid in Pamplona for three months while she recovered. As 90 days had expired they had to leave, so they headed to Ireland (a non-Shengen country) to plan their next trip to the Schengen. To be sure of the proper calculation for when they could return and for how long, they contacted both the Italian and French embassies and got conflicting in formation. When they circled back to the Italian embassy to tell them of the discrepancy, the personnel at the embassy told them to do whatever the French told them as it was probably right. So there is that!
 
O man. Here we are counting the days and no one really cares? I wonder if there are any stories of people over staying in Italy and being penalized.
 
O man. Here we are counting the days and no one really cares? I wonder if there are any stories of people over staying in Italy and being penalized.

Thanks for the input -- appreciate the thoughts.

In my internet searches, I found one example of a woman being stopped in Holland and ending up with an "illegal immigrant" notation for her passport, requiring her to get embassy permission for all future travel. Other stories of people being held up long enough to miss flights (not in Italy, though). The common theme seems to be low risk if you enter and exit from Italy, but we normally do side trips to other countries during our stays. Even though we are not going through passport checks on those excursions, it would still make me nervous.

I think my next move is to send an email request to a different Italian embassy here in the US and to see if their answer is anything like the one I got at the DC office.

Just an unrelated side note to the France/Italy above -- we had our passports stolen when we were in Tanzania last month. When we got our replacement passports at the embassy in Dar Es Salaam, we were told that we could transit home to the US through Italy (we were going back to Rome for a few days) using that passport, but that France would not accept replacement documents if we had any flights taking us there.
 
But in Venice Marco Polo Airport, passport control is now done electronically.

And that is the other part of my concern if there is a computer system handling the security aspects. I sent a query to the Philadelphia Italian embassy -- I'll let you know what I hear back.
 
Every country has immigration and visa laws and as travelers we should respect those when visiting another country. We have lived in Italy since 2006 and obtained the proper visa to stay here and renew our permits every two years. Not following the law just gives the far-right politicians in every country a reason to push anti-immigration laws.

When we lived in Ascoli Piceno we knew an American girl (with Italian ancestry) who did not have the proper permits, was discovered and escorted to the airport in Rome and banned from returning for 2 years.

This Schengen site says this:
Many people get confused when it comes to the 90/180 rule. But, the rule is very simple. The 180-day period keeps rolling. Therefore, anytime you wish to enter the Schengen, you just have to count backwards the last 180 days, and see if you have been present there for more than 90 days throughout that period.

Please keep in mind that the border guard has the final say whether a traveler should be permitted to enter the Schengen Zone or not.


This part of their site even has a calculator, scroll down their page: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/us-citizens/
 
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You don't need to email anybody. It is definitely a rolling calendar. The advice to count backward is the best advice, using your day of departure from the Schengen territory. The calendar Bryan posted is also really helpful, I use that one all the time as well as this one:

If you want to go in May/June and September/October, there can be almost three months in between. So if you really want to be on the safe side, fly on June 15 and don't return until after September 15. Can you be a bit flexible with dates?
 
If you want to go in May/June and September/October, there can be almost three months in between. So if you really want to be on the safe side, fly on June 15 and don't return until after September 15. Can you be a bit flexible with dates?

I have used the on line calculator and it tells me I'm over the limit by 35 days. Counting backwards from our October return date would require me to begin the trip in advance of April 23.

I fully agree with BryanS on the the need to comply with laws and regulations, but my problem is that the embassy staff said it wasn't an issue and would not give me guidance on any needed visa (her response was, "There is no such thing as a six month visa"). I had a list of items needed for visa applications with me for her to confirm and to give guidance on, but that never made it out of my folder.

For Shannon, my dates above were not specific -- we actually leave in mid-May and stay until mid-July. My retirement avocation is coaching high school baseball and my departure date is tied to the end of our season in May. The July date is tied to social obligations we have with friends and my wife's family (birthdays, anniversaries, etc.). The September/October trip is a little looser, but my wife hates cold weather (the heating in our house is pretty bad) and November is not her favorite time in Italy. For this year, we have a family wedding back in the US on Halloween (who does that?), so that is a fixed return this year. Some years we go in September; some in October -- this is the first year where we're hoping to be there both months.
 
Just an update. Sent notes to the Atlanta and Philadelphia embassy sites. Philly never responded. Atlanta said, "See our web site". Talked to a friend of mine who runs a passport/visa assistance service -- says he quit dealing with the Washington embassy since they were so difficult to work with. At this point, will wait and try again in the spring since we are no in need to rush to make our September reservations.
 
I guess I'm confused - is there still a question? You are allowed to be in Schengen countries for 90 out of 180 days. Day one is the first day you are in any Schengen country.
Still a problem. We would be 35 days over if we stayed 2 months on each planned trip. Issue is trying to get guidance on how (if) to handle any visa to exceed.
 
Other than applying for a Visa of some sort, it's not possible to overstay and still be legal. There is no such thing as an extension. All you can do is take a chance you won't be caught. For sure don't go through Germany!
 
Other than applying for a Visa of some sort, it's not possible to overstay and still be legal. There is no such thing as an extension. All you can do is take a chance you won't be caught. For sure don't go through Germany!

That is where we started out by asking the embassy for assistance with the type of visa that would allow us to spend the additional time. Got no help from the clerk there. Am getting no help from the other two embassies we've contacted. Was hoping to find contributors on here who had either been told "absolutely impossible" to stay more than 90 days no matter what or who had gone through a visa process that would allow it. We keep finding search references to a permesso di soggiorno, which has a "long-term stay visa" as a predecessor requirement (according to info, you get the "long-term stay" visa first and then apply for the "permesso" once you are in country. The embassy staff, however, seems to have nary a clue what I'm talking about when I inquire as to the "long term visa".
 
The permesso di soggiorno is issued by the local Italian government once you have arrived in Italy - AFTER having been granted a visa through your local embassy/consulate. A visa can be granted for many reasons: for work, for marriage to an Italian, or as a student. We went to Italy with an Elective Residency Visa. Here are the guidelines:
An Italian Elective Residence Visa
An Italian Elective Residence is for non-EU, EEA, and Swiss citizens who have chosen Italy as a permanent residence and who are able to support themselves without having to obtain employment in the country (dependent, self-employed, or remote). People who usually obtain this type of visa are retired or have high self-sustaining incomes and financial assets, for example, people with international investments or international properties. With this form of visa, you are not permitted to finance the residency through employment.
This visas requires one to state that they will live permanently in Italy - forever. If you tell them you want to go for 9 months, they'll tell you it's not possible. Period. If you want to go to Italy for 9 months you still have to jump thru all the hoops as if you were moving there permanently, including having a rental agreement or proof of housing, proving that you have enough funds to support yourself without having to work. And health insurance. Most fulltime residents drop their U.S. coverage after they've received residency, and join the Italian healthcare system. Those who don't stay fulltime usually keep their U.S., based health insurance and have most of their medical work done when they're in the states. You're not allowed to work, even remotely via internet, for this visa. I'm not saying you can't do it, but you can't tell the consulate that you plan to work on the internet.

Lots of people fulfill all these requirements but don't stay over 180 days per year in order to avoid Italian tax liability. They return to their home in the states, but every year (in Umbria, every 2 years in some regions). They knew they weren't going to stay more than 180, but they lied, or at least bent the truth. If you want to continue to visit Italy for more than 90 out of 180 every year, perhaps you should consider applying for on ER visa. I don't know your finances to know if you can show proof of housing, or proof a adequate funds - mysterious number that varies from consulate to consulate.

That's the reality. If you want to stay less than fulltime, you have to indicate otherwise. Being honest and upfront and sincere will result in you being told flat out "No". You have 2 options:
  1. Take your chances and stay longer than 90/180 days, knowing that there MIGHT BE consequences. Unfortunately no one can say whether your chances of succeeding are 10% or 90%,. Pessimist scaredy cat me wouldn't want to take the risk.
  2. Apply for an ER visa and indicate, where necessary, your desire to live in Italy permanently. You would have to make sure you were in Italy when your permesso was due for renewal - sometimes this process can be incredibly inefficient. As long as your visa is renewed on time you could come and go as you please. remembering that being in Italy more than 180 days per year makes you an Italy resident FOR TAX PURPOSES, and you're now required to pay taxes based on your income - and Social Security IS included. (Federal pensions are exempt for some reason).
I hope I've explained this clearly enough!
 
Thank you for summarizing my past posts. We meet all requirements (own a home in Italy; have bank accounts there; etc.). We can easily put together the documents noted in the embassy sites and above. The problem is being told by the clerk at the DC embassy a firm "no" to any option to spend four months there. Not much value to us in putting together a file that isn't going to be accepted and/or paying for return airline tickets if gambling on a permesso being issued once there. Worst case is we get to spend 3 months, as usual. Best case is we get a different clerk on our next embassy visit.
 
I guess you didn't pick up on my advice to LIE. The only way you'll get a visa is to LIE and say you're planning to be there full time. I was trying NOT to use the work "lie", not wanting to sound harsh or judgmental, but that's the reality. You can lie and probably get the visa, or take your chances when you go through immigration. Your call.
 

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