Changes in the US will affect Europe

[Aussie Greg]

You just can't see the point can you? Your indignation shows that.
I was also a member of Slow travel.
The only reason I can think of for your not wanting to address the real issue as represented by this statement "Some pundits claim Trump has a mandate, but forgetting the Electoral College margin, Trump recieved less than half the popular vote, 49.9%." is that you are of the same political persuasion that 'No Spin' obviously is.
That statement is totally unnecessary on this Forum.
If you refuse to see that, you are part of the problem.
And I can assure you that this Forum, is NOW, definitely not where one finds Peace.
You might also ask yourself why you let people on this forum hide behind psydonyms.

 

[Pauline]

No one here is denying that Trump clearly won. We were discussing how we as American travelers will be perceived in other countries. @Aussie Greg you are not American. When you speak to someone while traveling they won’t be asking you about Trump. Our American accents are like big flags drawing people to talk to us about this. We need to understand how the rest of the world sees us and share our experiences. Europeans have strong feelings about American politics.

All this and he hasn’t even taken office yet!

This is a peaceful forum. I started one thread about this because I felt it could not be ignored. One thread does not change a forum.

It is a travel forums tradition to use creative user names. No need to use your real name.

 

[Ian Sutton]

Was it wise to start a political thread? Perhaps in hindsight no, but it was started with a high degree of subtlety, given the general uncertainty.

I really appreciated Beerman's post, as the trench warfare that is US politics / socio-politics is distinctly unhealthy and drives division between people. We've seen its effect starkly in this very thread.

I wonder whether Greg misread NoSpin's reference to Putin echoing 1930s Germany as instead referring to Trump. I've read and re-read that post, but am 100% certain there was no such insinuation. I'm sure NoSpin would confirm that.

I can only assume that is what Greg assumed, as what was actually written in no way tallies with the accusation of bigotry.

The only other possibility is Greg is defending Putin, which I simply can't believe (but correct me if I'm wrong Greg).

Whatever, this thread has become something so far removed from the cordiality this forum is loved for, and would ask that everyone plays their part in returning to the way we normally speak to each other. To paraphrase the great Rugby referee Nigel Owens "This is not twitter".

 

[BEERMAN]

First, I like the pseudonym's as screen names, I find some interesting and it sometimes tells you a little about the person using one. I am BEERMAN, it's not a part of my name, I never worked in the beer industry, I have on occasion yelled "BEERMAN!" at sports events!.. simple fact is, I just like beer ;-) I might eventually blend that and call myself BEERWINEMAN?

I guess the Forum's Admins decide what content is allowed, but politics on travel sites I frequent usually turns ugly and personally turns me off. I would really need to know a person before I even tried to share my political views.

I once had a "private" conversation with a friend regarding our local school system, they brought up a "hot" topic and I shared my view. For some reason they shared my thoughts with another friend who shared with another and well.....I've been "unfriended" by two people that I've considered friends for decades. Pretty severe consequence for having an opinion. If someone asks me a question/opinion, I usually don't tip toe around it, they shouldn't ask if not prepared for my response.

Instead of politics, I would like to see comments on trip reports?! Tell me my pics suck or that I should have used a comma... or just give it a thumbs up ;-) CHEERS!

 

[Aussie Greg]

Nice to see a different approach by some. One needs to remember that not all people have had a good education and have the ability to read and understand what is written and what, in addition, is designed to be implied.
To clear up a couple of matters which have been raised by others:

1: Definition of Bigotry; "obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."

2: 'No Spin' used the following wording, which I have already pointed out; "Some pundits claim Trump has a mandate, but forgetting the Electoral College margin, Trump recieved less than half the popular vote, 49.9%.".
It is somewhat ironic that someone who used the Pseudonym 'No Spin' tries to spin the reality of Trump's win into not a win ( IE; and therefore does not have a mandate) Pursuing this direction with such a statement is the height of Bigotry, as per the above definition.
His OP would have by and large, (subject to additional comment below) been valid and sensible without this unnecessary and volatile statement. AND THAT IS WHAT I OBJECT TO
.
3: Pauline, " No one here is denying that Trump clearly won."
Someone is trying to deny that Trump won. That person goes by the Pseudonym of 'No Spin'.

4: Ian Sutton, thank you for not asuming anything about me and offering the opportunity to clarify.
Putin is a despicable, inhumane, despot. And there is absolutely no way I would or could defend him.
You do make an interesting point about Hitler/ Putin/ Trump. And firstly I note that 'No Spin' has not bothered to reply to your suggestion.
'Guilty by association' (of idea or person) is however a well used, but IMHO despicable journalistic approach of trying to implant an idea into peoples' minds.
There have been multiple attempts during the election process to align Trump with Hitler. So your assumption may not be accurate.
Once again there was absolutely no need for 'No Spin' to include this reference


I think Ian Sutton got this absolutely right: "Was it wise to start a political thread? Perhaps in hindsight no,"

I will not be replying any further after this.

Thank you to those who participated in this discussion. Aussie Greg

 

[NoSpin]

Take your bigotry elsewhere

Well I very sincerely apologize if you thought my post was bigotry. I have absolutely no ill feelings towards the Russian people. Free political speech is severely frowned upon in Russia, but I would bet if they could speak freely, a majority of Russians would say they prefer their sons and husbands not be dying in Ukraine.

My problem is singularly with Putin. He has avowed to restore the USSR, and his mouthpiece, Lukashenko, wants to start with Poland once Ukraine is conquered.

As someone who travels to Europe twice a year for extended stays, my concern is there may not be a Europe at peace in the future if Putin prevails in Ukraine.

I guess you can call it political, but my interests are purely, and selfishly, reserved to European travel.

 

[Pauline]

As someone who travels to Europe twice a year for extended stays, my concern is there may not be a Europe at peace in the future if Putin prevails in Ukraine.

Not to open another political bag of worms, that is how I feel about Israel. We did our first trip in 2018 and both fell in love with the country. Thankfully we did three more month-long trips, then a shortened trip at the start of Covid. Now they are at war and it is probably not wise for us to return. I would have liked to travel to Ukraine too.

 

[NoSpin]

Wow, Pauline, you have expressed our concerns. My wife has wanted to visit Israel for years. For various reasons it just hasn't happened, and now it looks to be unlikely at least for some time.

Personally, I don't think it is improper to discuss political issues that impact tourism. It is just that the discussion should be respectful of others and not involve name calling or labeling. However, I will abide by whatever the rules are here. I love this forum and wouldn't want to be kicked off.

Anyway, we're off to London in less than two weeks to spend Christmas there. Thanks to PatrickLondon for some great tips. In addition to events, I would have never thought about church concerts that he recommended.

And as a bonus, the US dollar has been strong and the British pound is down to 1.27. As recently as late September it was $1.34. I need that extra pence for tea at Harrod's!

 

[PatrickLondon]

Better value elsewhere than Harrod's (but I'm prejudiced)

 

[NoSpin]

Where would you suggest? I was kind of kidding about Harrod's, but we did go to tea there in June this year and we did enjoy it.

 

[Ian Sutton]

In part Harrods, The Ritz and perhaps others are about 'having done it', and enjoying the experience of doing it there, more than any sense of it providing relative value. It's about the sense of occasion.

I reckon better value would be almost everywhere else, yet none may deliver that sense of occasion, that might be priceless.

 

[Steve R.]

I'm sorry to have read the above political posts but I think that a flare up is/was inevitable. I post on several food/restaurant boards and, even there, it's taken constant vigilance to prevent (or at least minimize) similar heated exchanges (or worse). And, in my personal life, I've watched as family members no longer speak to each other and friends back off interactions due to knowing others' political views. After all, we live in an uptick of scary times regardless of what one personally believes is the cause (or solution).
The U.S. elections have worldwide ramifications &, here at home, major consequences are expected. Although I believe that the results are frightening & I worry what will occur over the coming years, I'm just as worried about the polarization and hatred toward "the others", regardless of whose definition one uses. Folks are angry and are taking it out on each other.
As for the "mandate" (or lack thereof), it should be pointed out that the election was decided not on Trump receiving many more votes than in his loss to Biden four years ago, but in Harris receiving millions fewer votes. Probably even a worse aspect of our current society.
I look forward to this site remaining as free from the storm as can be managed & thank those who steer it in that direction. Meanwhile, out there in the non-virtual world, hold on to your hats. The weather report is not looking warm and sunny. I, for one, will tailor my travel accordingly.
And, seriously, try to have a Happy Holiday season.

 

[PatrickLondon]

After all, we live in an uptick of scary times

Indeed, and of course it's not unique to any one country. Over the years things like Brexit, Suez, appeasement in the 30s, Irish Home Rule and parliamentary reform in the 1910s, all led to deep rifts in otherwise calm and reasonable social relationships in the UK.

And as for Scottish independence....

View: https://youtu.be/Kt15LcJCUks?feature=shared

 

[Pauline]

That was hilarious! Things were so unsettled in the 1970s too (my youth).

 

[NoSpin]

That was funny.

I only wish there were subtitles so I could understand all of it!

 

[JMichael]

Thanks for the link, Patrick. NoSpin: I had the same problem but turned on Closed Captions. Most of it was accurate.

You and I are about the same age, Pauline. I remember "Love it or leave it," as if questioning the status quo or any authority meant you didn't love your country. We made it through though, didn't we?

 

[Allen]

Loved the wonderful injection of the Scottish Independence clip, thank you Patrick London.
A small niggle: while strongly agreeing that even political-like topics too easily create unintended heat and are best avoided here, I believe Ukraine is not only not ‘a long way from Europe’, it is actually IN Europe (as is a chunk of western Russia!). Perhaps the contributor wanted to distinguish between Western Europe and Eastern Europe.

 

[PatrickLondon]

Loved the wonderful injection of the Scottish Independence clip, thank you Patrick London.

Two Doors Down is a minor cult comedy series - an ensemble group of love/loathe neighbours

Perhaps the contributor wanted to distinguish between Western Europe and Eastern Europe.

We were so used to the idea of Western=democracy/NATO and Eastern=Communist that when the great change came it took some effort to remember to refer to the former satellite states as Central Europe.