I may stay a while

[Sojourner]

Well for an introductory post, I have to say I am surprised at how much discussion it has generated.

Sorry I got your intent mixed up joe regarding 'easier planning' and 'less surprises'. So we are in agreement on those generally speaking being a personal viewpoint.

So some more better or worse to add to the list depending on a person's viewpoint joe.

One that perhaps many here who like booking apartments/houses rather than hotels may see as a 'better' but that I see a s a 'worse', is Airbnb. Started out as a good idea to make a few bucks providing an air mattress (hence the name, it has nothing to do with air travel) on your living room floor when all the hotels in town were fully booked with a convention/event, has grown exponentially and the exploiters have flocked to make money.

As a result, cities like Paris now have a shortage of long term rental space available to residents. What's more, the majority of the rentals listed on Airbnb are not legal rentals and when this is pointed out to Airbnb, their response is that they are just a listing site, they are not responsible for what people list. So they are legally correct and morally wrong. Paris has over 55, 000 listings on Airbnb and only something like 125 that are legally registered to be renting out for more than 4 months of the year.

The issue is not someone who 'opens their home' to a traveller, it is the exploiters who buy up or rent multiple properties with the sole intention of renting them out by the night. Of the 55,000 listing for Paris, 85% are for entire homes and 20% are listed by people who have multiple listings. It's not about renting out a spare room or airbed in the home you live in. It's about being in the hotel business without having to comply with all the rules and regulations that a hotel has to comply with.

Cellphones, tablets, etc. and yes GPS devices are also on my 'worse' list. All such devices are 'tools' and as with all tools, they can be used properly or not.

So someone goes for a hike up a mountain or in a desert and when they get into trouble, they use their cellphone to call for help from a Rescue Service. That is incorrect use of the tool. It belongs in the 'when all you have is a hammer, all problems are a nail' category. The tools they should have had were the experience and equipment necessary to not need to call a Rescue Service. ie. a map, a compass and the knowledge of how to use it, the equipment to deal with any potential weather etc. Before cellphones, what did they do?

Cellphones and Skype have made it possible to be in constant contact with friends and family back home. But that often results in people spending time sending selfies, sending texts, etc. instead of spending their time IN the place they have travelled to. In many ways, they don't leave 'home' at home, they take it with them. That speaks to a person staying in their comfort zone rather than having to cope with being out of their comfort zone. In my opinion, travel should take you out of your comfort zone and force you to rely on yourself. That's how you grow.

On another travel forum I read a post by a mother who was posting on behalf of her daughter and the daughter's boyfriend who were in their 20's and on their first trip to Europe. They were in a city and could not get any of their cards to work in an ATM. So what did they do? They phoned mother for help and mother went online to a travel forum to ask what they should do! Rather than that couple solving their OWN problem, they called mother. Never left home or their comfort zone in a sense.

More 'worse'. Air travel in terms of security rules. I don't object to the intended purpose of increased security but I do object to having to always remember to remove my little 2 inch Swiss Army Knife from my key chain before I fly or have it impounded. If you are going to say I could hold it to someone's throat and try to hi jack the flight, you might as well say I could do the same with a pencil and threaten to stab them in the jugular or take a credit card and file the edge to razor sharpness and make the same threat. Some rules are made to give people the FALSE sense of security precautions being taken when in fact, if someone wants to do something, they will find a way to do it anyway. Common sense sometimes seem to go out the window when it comes to what they come up with next re security.

Carry-on luggage. Oh how I hate where things have gone in this regard. I can remember when the overhead bin was referred to as being for coats, hats and briefcases. NOT for luggage. Now we see people literally fighting over space in overhead bins.

You see people bringing carry-on luggage aboard that they literally do not have the strength to lift up and put in the bin. They have to ask someone to help them. Anyone who has ever been on a plane that experienced severe air turbulence and seen the overhead bins pop open and the contents flying around the cabin, will understand why I think overhead bins should be removed entirely.

Roz, the one thing I really hate not having when I travel is a cup of coffee first thing in the morning. Breakfast I can wait for but I don't like to start doing anything before I have my coffee.

 

[Pauline]

One that perhaps many here who like booking apartments/houses rather than hotels may see as a 'better' but that I see a s a 'worse', is Airbnb.

I agree. I see AirBnB as a replacement for hotels, not as a replacement for vacation rentals. Instead of building new hotels in a city, now private apartments are turning into hotels. Cities can't regulate AirBnB the way they can hotels. I liked the good old days of Slow Travel when you rented an apartment on a farm (agritourism, gites) and only occasionally found apartments in cities. If you wanted to stay in a city, you stayed in a hotel - a nice, small, family-run hotel.

Cellphones, tablets, etc. and yes GPS devices are also on my 'worse' list.

Disagree, strongly! It all depends on how you use them. My cellphone lets me meet up with other travelers easily. My tablet lets me check the forums to make sure the spammers are keeping away. My GPS, which some times does a bad job, also does a good job and makes me feel more confident driving in a new place.

Carry-on luggage. Oh how I hate where things have gone in this regard.

Agree! I hate lugging heavy bags around the airport. You always have to walk for a mile to get to your gate!

Roz, the one thing I really hate not having when I travel is a cup of coffee first thing in the morning. Breakfast I can wait for but I don't like to start doing anything before I have my coffee.

@Shannon taught me to travel with a plastic melita filter, filters and coffee. We always have coffee!

 

[Roz]

I agree, too, about AirBnB. It's crazy how it has taken over the vacation rental business, and as Sojourner says, so many of them are illegal. In Napa, where I live, there are very strict laws that are supposed to regulate and limit the AirBnB rentals. But it is very hard and expensive to enforce those laws, so there are lots of violations. And here, too, it is a contributing factor in the shortage of housing for families and people who work here.

Re coffee: I've been surprised how many rentals in our recent travels now have Nespresso machines -- at least in France. I never use Nespresso in the US because it's so expensive, and also not very ecological. But it is handy for a quick cup of coffee when traveling.

 

[Ian Sutton]

Well for an introductory post, I have to say I am surprised at how much discussion it has generated.

That's good - we are after all a discussion forum

 

[Ian Sutton]

The comment about air b&b is something that I always fear with something that takes off on a large scale. It sounds like they were set up for something very different to what they are now, and that they may not be keen on accepting the extra responsibility that comes with it. There may be similarities with Uber! A lesson perhaps for those talking about disruptive technology / appoaches, that getting the market is one thing, but if you aren't thinking ahead, the whole thing could get out of hand.

I really do like apartments in cities, as it helps me embed a little more. The flexibility of having 0,1 or 2 meals out in the day is great. We've stayed in aparthotels, agriturismo apartments and private let apartments, though none yet through air b&b.

For us hotels are not what we want, cooped up in a single room (plus bathroom), often with windows that don't open and aircon that is either noisy or ineffectual or both. Breakfasts at set times, often not reflecting the local equivalent. Huge numbers of staff, including daily cleaning, when all I really need is someone to check me in, and if staying for longer than a week, someone to change the towels / bed linen, plus someone available if anything stops working. So for me, whilst I don't see the death of hotels, I do see many converting to aparthotels, partly to face off against air b&b, but also because many people realise there is better value in apartments than hotels.

Now there is clearly a balance between the city's inhabitants and its tourists. If we pay too much, then it may end up with the rise of 'holiday let' landlords, doing it on a grand scale. This could indeed force locals out, or at least out of the central areas in the city. However those hotels that lose business may end up converted into new apartments, so the net position may not change. Cities tend to be fluid and are often well-versed in adapting. It might be the end result is a lesser neighbourhood becomes trendy and gets renovated, as people gravitate to it.

Out of preference, I've preferred to take properties through a local Italian agency, so there is someone 'on the ground' if we encountered a major issue / somewhere awful.

 

[Sojourner]

Pauline, we do not lug heavy luggage around anywhere. Part of that may be because we do not carry the making for a cup of coffee. How do you boil the water?

Roz, I will settle even for the crappy filtered coffee in a sachet that some hotels provide if I must but don't see Nespresso or Keurig pods as being much better than that. I have my own 'barista' at home who uses a proper espresso machine to grind the beans fresh and make me any kind of coffee I want. Her lattes are a work of art. It pays to marry the right person but it does spoil you for anything less than perfection. Her everyday lattes look like these:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW84HCKhAFk


Occassionaly, if I'm deserving, I get something like these:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNyLoz8PK0E


Ian Sutton, we use a mix really of hotels and apartments/houses. It depends on where, why and for how long we expect to stay in a place. For example, a new place will always be a hotel since we have no idea how long we will want to stay. A well known place may be a 2 month rental of a home because we know what we intend to do their.

I do agree that a hotel room can get claustrophobic after a while though. I'd give it a one week limit I think. Also, in some places which are busy tourist areas, actual purpose built vacation rentals can provide a bit of both. A large room or suite with some kitchen facilities but also some of the amenities and services of a hotel.

 

[Ian Sutton]

I can see why nespresso is popular in apartments and even hotels. Much better than any instant coffee, and not at all messy. Personally I'd rather just have a stovetop mokapot in an apartment, so I can get fresh coffee to use in it, but I remain very happy to use the local bars to find one we like the vibe and the coffee. At home we have a Rancilio Silvia machine with Eureka Mignon grinder, plus a fine selection of local coffee roasters. Unlike Sojourner's barista, my coffee artwork is more surreal / abstract, involving trademark randomly shaped blobs

Nespresso quality? For me it's decent, indeed surprisingly so, but I've yet to taste a Nespresso coffee that I'd prefer to the worst coffee I've had in an Italian bar. That's a slightly naughty comparison, as Italian coffee is reliably good, often very good, though the best coffees I've had have been away from Italy. The only challenge being working out which local coffee works best as espresso/macchiato and which as cappuccino - a more subtle coffee in a cappuccino gets lost.

I can see the popularity of Nespresso, as for many a decent cup with no hassle is exactly what they want. I much prefer the results of our home setup, and rather enjoy the more manual process. Cleaning isn't too challenging, for either the machine or grinder.

 

[joe]

AirBnB :

Yes, there are positives and negatives - but IMO the benefits have outweighed the damage. I have used them three times (all on our last trip to Italy, only in cities), and I will never book a hotel again. When I mean "hotel", I'm not talking about very small family-run businesses - these might be comparable to what AirBnB has to offer with regard to accommodations with a "face".

"Face" has become a significant factor in human interaction (just think of "Facebook", which, sorry to say, I detest and you won't find me there...). You have an icon of yourself in your e-mail, on forums, on Skype, etc.
When you see a face, then you know there is a "person" there, in a different way than when you hear a voice on a phone, or see a written name in a signature. When the "face" also supplies a little story about itself, then you are talking about accommodations with someone who is like you - not someone who is a type of "cog" in a hotel chain (no offense intended, I don't mean to make generalizations).

The sharing economy is now in its birth - there is delivery pain, and problems with the new-born - but it is showing that changes can be made to market paradigms, changes that shake the older forces, are not dependent on them, and grow from below. AirBnB is offering accommodation in cities that is something more like a home - not a comfy "cell" in a corridor - and has established a set of guidelines that have not been generated through the regular monolithic bureaucracy, which I think is a step in the right direction. It puts people more in direct contact with people, not with a business name or an apparatus.

Sure, regulation has to step in to make it more of a level playing field with regard to taxes, and this will probably happen. Even Inspector Clouseau can determine who the listings belong to. And real estate will always be an "up-for-grabs" prize for anyone with good market-predicting capabilities, or money (or both), with all the implications this entails. The areas around universities or big exhibition grounds are also an example of this.
But AirBnB's success has proven that the "times they are a-changin' ", and that both hosts and guests (of all types and budgets) have a new way to look at accommodations.

 

[Sojourner]

Well I am not adverse to change. However, I am not in favour of anything that adversely affects others or in favour of doing business with a company that does not care if it does adversely affect others.

There are 2 things that result in my being against Airbnb. First is accountability. Airbnb is not accountable for anything and knowingly hide behind that legal fact. Airbnb has repeatedly and consistently refused to accept any responsibility including moral responsibility for anything unless they have somehow been forced to by a municipality. What's more, they spend millions of dollars fighting any attempt to have them accept any responsibility for anything.

That brings me to my second objection and that is the impact on neighbours. Never mind taxes not paid or rising housing costs, what about the neighbours? If someone decides to rent out the apartment next door to yours on Airbnb, where are your rights to object to your home (yes, the entire building is in fact your home) being turned into a hotel without your agreement. You and your right to live your life as you want, don't count. You can live in what has become a hotel or you can leave. That's your only choice.

If someone wants to build an apartment building and then sell all the apartments to people who want to rent them out by the night on Airbnb, I have no objection. Why would I, I'm not likely to buy one and live in that building. Would you? But that is not what is happening. People are turning apartments in buildings which are people's residences, into hotels and not the renter, rentee or Airbnb gives a * about the neighbours.

Airbnb may be a great idea in some people's minds when they are the traveller, not so great when they are the next door neighbour to an Airbnb rental. Here's just a sample of what you can find happening. How would you like to live next door?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/sep/17/airbnb-nuisance-neighbours-tribunal-ruling

When you rent through Airbnb, there are not just 2 parties involved or even 3 counting Airbnb, there are FOUR parties involved and that fourth one is the neighbours. What thought do you give to them having to live next door to an Airbnb rental? A rental that YOU are supporting by renting it.

 

[joe]

Sojourner, you've raised valid points - the ones that are usually brought up when discussing the downsides of this accommodation platform - but I think you are ignoring the dynamics of these types of developments. Forces and counter-forces are always playing against each other, and some sort of balance is attained (hopefully a compromise that both forces accept), until the balance is disrupted again.

So we will probably start seeing - actually it's already happening in the bigger cities - legislation that will curb AirBnB's freedom, make them face losses of income, and restrict home-owners in their rentals. These things take time, but once one major city somewhere in the world finds the right means to handle the problems that have developed, other cities adopt them as well, and the system adapts itself.

The question of urban dynamics is complicated. I'd say that a city that wants to preserve its character - and keep attracting tourists in a balanced way - will realize that it must preserve its residential neighborhoods in a way that empowers its locals and its local identity. Indeed, that is what usually brings tourists there in the first place. If the scales have tipped in the favor of tourists, and locals leave, then the place loses its charm to tourists as well - and the city loses. How many cities or popular sites in the world do you know that are succeeding with this, even before AirBnB entered the equation? How many places can rise above their petty politics and do successful long-term planning?

In any case, the story of who your neighbor is, and what you're going to do about it if they aren't your cup of tea, is as old as the Bible. The implications of tourist rentals in a building is just one more brick in this wall.

Market dynamics are swift and hard to reverse. There's a thread here on the forum now about Frequent Flyers/Air Miles. There's something absurd, in this day and age of ecological footprints and environmental impacts, about rewarding consumption with more consumption. If "accountability" (what you demand of AirBnB) was truly an important principle in the market, frequent flyers would be asked to pay a penalty, not rewarded (OK, that's going to get some people angry...).

So we know the world is not perfect, and that money and comfort are two of the most dominant forces in it. I think that for every story that you can discover that attacks AirBnB, it is possible to find a larger amount that show how it has changed the matter of travel accommodation for the better.

Let's hope that the right balance is found before more damage is done, and let's enjoy what the service has to offer.

 

[Pauline]

I am a hypocrite for disliking AirBnB but always staying in vacation rentals. I like that it is easy to find apartments in cities now. Before AirBnB there were not as many apartments. BUT I think AirBnB has brought a lot of travelers who would have stayed in hotels into the vacation rentals market just because it is cheaper. And I don't like to see business taken away from small hotels.

Also, I have been told that people are not staying in agriturismo/gites now. They don't want to stay out in the countryside. 10 years ago we had to stay in them because there were very few places to rent in towns. I remember when I was thrilled to find an apartment in a town. But I don't like seeing business taken away from countryside places.

Maybe I am just having a hard time adjusting to the new world of travel.

 

[Ian Sutton]

We like to split our time between city and countryside. 2 locations = one of each; 3 locations = 1 city and 2 rural.

 

[Sojourner]

It is a complex subject obviously and I agree that the world it is a changing as they say.

I do think it is quite possible to differentiate from purpose built vacation rentals and residential rentals however Pauline. There are plenty of popular places in the world where entire buildings are intended for vacation rentals. Those are not the same as apartments in buildings that were built for residential use.

I see no reason to feel guilty about renting a 'vacation rental' anywhere if it is a legal rental. That one factor alone puts the majority of Airbnb listings out of the picture. For a property in Paris to be registered as a vacation rental for example, they must comply with certain regulations and restrictions etc. There are 125 +/- registered in Paris out of 55,000+ Airbnb listings. Others may be legal without registering IF the owner is LIVING in the property. Stick to one of those two categories and there is no need to feel guilty. But it puts the onus on the traveller to do their due diligence to insure that is what they are renting and not one of the illegal rentals. Airbnb will not accept responsibility for doing that due diligence before allowing a property to be listed.

Joe, I like your take on air miles. It does indeed seem to be rewarding contributing to harming the environment. However, I would argue that there is no 'reward' actually being given. It is being paid for in every ticket sold to anyone. It's like all 'loyalty programs'. You pay 5 cents more for a lettuce and then they 'reward' you with 1 cent in 'reward points'. I actually don't like loyalty programs at all. The problem is that if you don't join them, you simply pay the 5 cents without getting the 1 cent back.

Similarly, all third party travel sites like Airbnb, Bookingcom, etc. are not providing anything to the traveller that the traveller isn't paying for. None of them are in business to 'help' the traveller. They are in business to help themselves to some of your money. Wherever possible, I try to avoid using any third party site for anything and instead deal directly with the airline, hotel, etc. that I want to do business with.

 

[joe]

Similarly, all third party travel sites like Airbnb, Bookingcom, etc. are not providing anything to the traveller that the traveller isn't paying for. None of them are in business to 'help' the traveller. They are in business to help themselves to some of your money. Wherever possible, I try to avoid using any third party site for anything and instead deal directly with the airline, hotel, etc. that I want to do business with.

I'm with you on avoiding third parties. We use AirBnB only in the cities - in the countryside it's always direct contact with farms. Some regions establish local, or area-based, associations of businesses that market themselves jointly, providing another way to get in touch directly with what a region has to offer. The problem is, of course, the popularity of sites like Trip Advisor - even domestic tourists use these first. I always check regional websites first, in order to see if there are listings of local businesses directly marketed/advertised in this way. If there was something similar for cities, I might kiss AirBnB goodbye - but their platform is very user-friendly, and our experience so far has really improved our (short) stays in cities. We have met some very nice people this way.

 

[Roz]

I wish more people would post reviews of their vacation rentals here -- and include contact info for the owner. That way you would not be subsidizing AirB&B and similar sites. And of course, both you and the owner would pay less if you communicate directly.

I don't know of other review sites that are independent like Slow Europe. If you post a review on many of the big sites like Trip Advisor, VRBO, Homeaway, etc. (which are now mostly all part of the same conglomerate), you are prevented from including direct owner contact info. The site software will delete such info, and will also delete the owner's email if they message it to you directly from their site. I assume AirB&B would do the same, although I've never used it, so I don't know for sure.

Here are links to two previous discussions on this forum about this topic:
Listing Sites and their Hidden Charges
Service Fee Avoidance

 

[Ian Sutton]

I wish more people would post reviews of their vacation rentals here -- and include contact info for the owner.

Ok, I'll try and add a few brief reviews.

2 bed Apartment in Molveno
Via Belvedere 37 Gabriella Nardelli +39 340 4949207
http://www.bellavistamolveno.it/visitaci

The apartment
Very close to a place we stayed in before (Dama di Lago) and whilst there are great similarities, this was a little better furnished and is an apartment in a family home, rather than Dama di Lago which is 4 apartments, all acting as holiday lets. The owners have the ground floor flat, so are easily contactable. It was very quiet, though the local birdlife mean it isn't silent.

The apartment is on the top floor of three, so there are steps to climb, but if you're coming to the Trentino mountains, these are a minor challenge compared to the paths and short walk up from town. Of course this helps the utterly stunning views that everyone gets in this remarkably picturesque location.

Kitchen/lounge/diner quite well fitted out, and includes dishwasher, washing machine and DVD player/telly. Not huge but decent enough space. Bedrooms clean and comfy, very much in the regional style, but being the top floor, you will occasionally bang your head on the sloping beams.

Shortish walk into the centre of Molveno, either via the path to the side of Dama di Lago leading to the cable car, or a less steep route following the road in it's zig-zag. 10 minutes if in a rush, 15 is taking it easy. Allow double that for the route back, as it's uphill all the way.

Very short walk up to the start of the path up to Pradel (where the 1st ski lift drops you), and also very quick to get to the ski lift station via that path through the meadow.

Who would like this?
Certainly those who like walking in the mountains (there is skiing, but this is a smaller ski resort than other local towns / villages such as Paganella), stunning views, mountain fresh air and once up on the paths, virtual silence. For those less keen on steeper walking, there are places down in the village towards the lake itself, such that a walk up to the ski lift is as much as they'd need to do. Even better for them, in peak periods (seemingly summer and winter) there is a free bus within the village.
Self-catering has some limitations, as there are't too many food shops, however the bakery is good, the supermarket ok (but friendly), with the highlight being the slightly mad butcher who seems to stock anything and everything, including breads, strudel, water, wine, beer, eggs, cheeses, tomatoes, packaged goods, etc. etc. He is a wonderful character with some very good produce. He works very hard, and he also offers bbq food out the front of the shop at busy lunchtimes. This isn't a village for extensive 'food grazing', but there is plenty and some is of exceptionally high quality (e.g. Malga cheeses).
Half a dozen or more places to eat in the centre give you other options, plus the bars also do food. Pick of them for us was Speckstube e Filo, though the pizzeria in the village do good pizza with great variety.

Getting to/from
Driving is most convenient, though the journey might intimidate the very nervous, but the roads are good. There is a seasonally changing bus service, usually changing at Mezzocorona or Mezzolombardo for either another bus, or more usually the train into Trento. Allow a good half an hour by car and the bus takes a while longer, but seemed reliable, and allows you to take the scenery in.
Trento accessed via good Autostrada or fast train links from Bologna, Verona, etc. in the south and Bolzano to the north

 

[Sojourner]

There would need to be a separate area of the forum to post reviews in for it to make much sense I think. But even then, how do you stop fake reviews from being posted? That is the real problem with review sites. TA is notorious for fake reviews.

I recently watched a news feature which gave an in depth look at fake video reviews. It showed a young woman who advertises that she will make a 'testimonial' video review of your product or service for you. So there she is in one saying she is a 'dietician' who advises all her patients to use a certain make of diet supplement pills. On another she is a 'qualified account' or 'practicing lawyer', etc. etc. In other words she simply outright lies. While this is illegal, they can't catch them all. How much does it cost to have one of these fake reviews made for you? $10.00, yup, $10.00

Bell telephone was recently fined a couple of million here in Canada because their own employees up to and including the top executive level were posting reviews giving glowing recommendations to a new App they had launched.

I saw another news program that showed how for a few dollars someone will write a 'spambot' program for you that spams out 1000's of fake reviews for you on something.

The point is, the internet cannot be policed in any meaningful way and reviews are far too easy to fake. To me, there is only one conclusion to be drawn. Any review you read that was not written by a person you actually know is suspect and that pretty much makes reading reviews a waste of time.

 

[Pauline]

There would need to be a separate area of the forum to post reviews in for it to make much sense I think. But even then, how do you stop fake reviews from being posted? That is the real problem with review sites. TA is notorious for fake reviews.

There are forums for reviews for each country and we are collecting reviews. Scroll down the forum list and you will see them.

I review each member who registers for the forums and based on what they write about themselves decide if they can join. So we can pretty much trust that everyone posting is a real person and traveller. About 1 in 5 people who register are real. If a spammer gets through people let me know. If I am suspicious I set it so I have to review their post before it is live.

@Ian Sutton can you post that review in the reviews forum?

 

[joe]

The point is, the internet cannot be policed in any meaningful way and reviews are far too easy to fake. To me, there is only one conclusion to be drawn. Any review you read that was not written by a person you actually know is suspect and that pretty much makes reading reviews a waste of time.

That's a generalization. In many cases, it is correct : not all what you read is true and legit. That doesn't mean that you can't use common sense, just like when you do when you read an advertisement, the news, or the label on a jar of jam.

Again, I'd like to refer to AirBnB, as an instance where it seems that the problem of fake reviews has been well addressed. Because it is a closed system of service (for better and for worse), no information can get in or out without you connecting to the service. Which means only guests who have paid, and hosts who have indeed received guests, can comment on each other. Both guests and hosts are contacted separately by AirBnB, by e-mail, in order to receive feedback on each of them. You are limited in the amount of time you have to supply this feedback.

Theoretically, a host can "recruit" some friends/family to make false bookings though the site, have them pay as usual to AirBnB (without actually staying at the accommodation), and refund them their money (minus the AirBnB charge) - all this to get a few positive reviews up and running. But seriously, how many times can they do this?

Another thing : people actually really like to post reviews, doesn't make any difference if it's about an accommodation or a shirt. They like doing this for any number of reasons, some very good, and some pretty lame. We've all read reviews by someone who writes glowingly about something, and then states that he's off to use it. Obviously, this is not a fake review, just a pathetic one for the reviewer : he just couldn't wait to tell everyone about what he just bought!
Websites take advantage of this inclination of people to "let everyone know what they think about something", and we see the mixed results.

So reading reviews is indeed something to be done with care, but that doesn't mean that it is completely useless to do so.

 

[Ian Sutton]

@Ian Sutton can you post that review in the reviews forum?

Have done so, though I'd appreciate a sanity check that nothing obvious is missing from the review (anyone shout if something important isn't included. I edited out prices, as they are on the site)

_____________________________________________

In the wider debate, I think it's important to differentiate sites. Trip Advisor is high volume and mass market, notorious for the number of dodgy reviews, but undoubtedly the majority are genuine (if sometimes a little misjudged). Treat with caution, but there is still value. An example of this, is apparently the best restaurant in my city is (according to Trip Advisor) a decent, centrally located, fish and chip shop with seating area. It's not even a great fish and chip shop, but the location drives traffic and hence reviews, and the food style is populist.

Here the forumites are known, often from the previous site. I won't necessarily agree, but I do trust the honesty. The volume is a tiny fraction of Trip Advisor, so these reviews are likely to be ones that generate the thought of that accommodation and that location, whereas for Trip Advisor I may use it to see what the comments are on a place I've already found, and seek some feedback on.

I think Air BnB have done the right thing in being a closed loop of reviews. Once up and running I'd be pretty comfortable they were genuine, though I could see the appeal of 'paying' for a review or two to get them started on a good footing. I'd be surprised if there weren't instances of this occurring.