Would you get one of the first vaccines if it meant you could travel internationally?

[joe]

And here's an interesting item : an Italian study that interviewed 1000 citizens found that about half them would be hesitant about a corona vaccine. Apparently a significant factor is lack of trust in the safety of a vaccine.

https://www.thelocal.it/20201014/almost-half-of-all-people-in-italy-hesitant-about-covid-vaccine-study-finds

 

[Pauline]

What is a bit difficult for me - and probably for many others - to digest, is the seeming dissonance between the media/stories, and what you know from close experience.

I agree. In our area, Bridport, I was told there have been 4 deaths in total. It is hard to understand the numbers.

We did our September trip to Switzerland and were more cautious than usual but had a really great trip. We are thinking about a few weeks in the Canaries this winter. The UK may be entering a 2nd lockdown so we will see what the restrictions are.

 

[Tina]

What is a bit difficult for me - and probably for many others - to digest, is the seeming dissonance between the media/stories, and what you know from close experience

Yes, probably how wary each of us feel individually depends on how close we have come personally to Covid-19. I have a friend who died of it, not a close friend and yes he was 72 but fit and healthy, a strong mountain hiker, the father of a friend about the same age who also died perhaps because in his case he fell ill at the height of the pandemic and wasn't able to get treated, another acquaintance ended up in intensive care and survived, another friend and her husband both got it, he got to hospital but was dismissed because they needed beds (he's a GP), both survived but were ill for weeks and weeks, (the son in his twenties also got it and was ill on and off for weeks), my husband's cousin the same, all these people in their fifties and fit and healthy (like me?). Two colleagues, one infected her husband and elderly mother and all three ended up in hospital but survived. One of my close friends is a nurse and was sent to the Covid-19 department at the height of the emergency, and told me what it was like because she needed to share it with someone, .....it all adds up and it conditions your perceptions, I think you can't be too careful, many people who do get it seem to take weeks or even months to recover.....

 

[joe]

Yes, probably how wary each of us feel individually depends on how close we have come personally to Covid-19. .....it all adds up and it conditions your perceptions,

Very true.
And I'm sorry to hear that your personal experience of the spread of the virus has been so sad.

What also complicates matters a bit - at least in countries like mine, where trust in the gov't is at all-time lows - is that more and more health experts and hospital directors are openly saying that while the first total lockdown was justified (at the time, there was no experience with this virus), the new lockdown measures being taken are too extreme, numbers are being exaggerated, and that the health system is now able to cope better with new waves and outbreaks. In other words, the situation is two or three times worse than what is usually experienced in a season of bad flu, but not ten times worse, as we are led to believe. This is important, because basically they are saying : we see the huge damage being done by these lockdowns. Trust us, and make the restrictions more logical and efficient, there is no need for such great damage.

While these opinions might cause the less-wary to become even more careless, they still could be used to fine-tune the restrictions being imposed, in order that a more optimal routine for society come into play in this "new normal".
IAC, as always, one had better count mainly on oneself, and when it comes to travel - do it very carefully and plan accordingly.

 

[Pauline]

What also complicates matters a bit - at least in countries like mine, where trust in the gov't is at all-time lows - is that more and more health experts and hospital directors are openly saying that while the first total lockdown was justified (at the time, there was no experience with this virus), the new lockdown measures being taken are too extreme,

Same here in the UK. Lack of trust in the government, constant changing of restrictions. They are talking about a countrywide lockdown even though some scientists say it won’t help. Much of the country is under regional lockdown.

@Tina your list of friends who suffered from Covid really brings home what this virus can do.

Personally we are being very careful almost living as if we are in lockdown.

 

[NoSpin]

Interesting to read the first hand experiences of you all living in other countries. Fortunately no one we know have contracted the virus, but it is running rampant here. Outside of Sweden, no European or other 1st world country has bungled this pandemic more than the US.

Our president is in complete denial, but that will be corrected on election day.

 

[Sharon J]

Interesting to read the first hand experiences of you all living in other countries. Fortunately no one we know have contracted the virus, but it is running rampant here. Outside of Sweden, no European or other 1st world country has bungled this pandemic more than the US.

Our president is in complete denial, but that will be corrected on election day.

I'm out of here!!!

 

[Pauline]

Traditionally we’ve asked for no politics on this forum, but with this topic it is hard to ignore politics. We’ve already condemned the Israel and UK government responses in the thread, so I can understand condemning the US government response since it has been so visible worldwide.

 

[joe]

Criticizing gov't administrative responses to the pandemic should be OK, but the sentence "but that will be corrected on election day" should have stayed an unwritten contemplation....

 

[NoSpin]

Criticizing gov't administrative responses to the pandemic should be OK, but the sentence "but that will be corrected on election day" should have stayed an unwritten contemplation....

I agree and I sincerely apologize to the entire forum. I'll shut up about it.

Meanwhile, on Monday South Africa pared their banned list from 60 countries down to 22. The US is still on that list. Our paid trip originally scheduled for last April is still in limbo.

 

[Alpinista]

The "first vaccines" will go to people more highly prioritized than I. My wife and I will be in the next group down ("old and barely functioning") and I fully expect any issues with the vaccines to be identified by then (kind of a sad irony that the people contributing the most to our care will be both the highest priority and the ones most at risk of vaccine failures). When we are able to be vaccinated, we will be. I would welcome restrictions being placed on travel to exclude those who are not vaccinated (as I welcomed our school systems not admitting students who had not taken the course of childhood shots). Home schooling and staying at home rather than traveling are options and valid personal choices.

 

[NoSpin]

The "first vaccines" will go to people more highly prioritized than I. My wife and I will be in the next group down ("old and barely functioning") and I fully expect any issues with the vaccines to be identified by then ....... I would welcome restrictions being placed on travel to exclude those who are not vaccinated (as I welcomed our school systems not admitting students who had not taken the course of childhood shots).

"old and barely functioning" Oh, thank goodness, I thought it was only me!

My position on a vaccine is changing. I agree if countries restricted access to people who had a vaccine then I would get one.

An interesting point is there are many companies developing a vaccine. So conceivably one could choose which vaccine to take. Some may prove to be more effective, and less likely to carry side effects, than others.

For sure we live in interesting times.

 

[phirhon]

We will be getting the vaccine once one is available. We are in our mid sixties and do get the flu vaccine now we are getting older.

When we fly to France, we fly directly into Lyon. Coming from Australia, this means three consecutive flights with 22+ hours on planes and transit through four airports. It will be a long time before we feel comfortable doing that, and sometimes think we may never be able to travel to France again.

We are healthy but I am afraid I do not want to test the theory that this means you will only get mild symptoms at worst. Healthy people are getting it and healthy people are dying. Add in the fact that no one really knows what the long term effects on the body are going to be. We will do what we can to avoid it.

I am watching with horror at what is unfolding in Europe and the UK. Today France had more cases in one day than we have had in the whole pandemic. Unfortunately travel does spread this virus. Travellers to Australia are required to quarantine for fourteen days in a hotel and everyday people in quarantine are testing positive. Crew members on merchant ships off ports around the country are testing positive. If these people had been allowed directly into the community we would be in a far worse situation.

We are coming into summer here and out of winter and flu season. Indications are that colds and flu numbers are well down on other years because of restrictions, social distancing and increased hand hygiene. So that is a positive.

I feel for all those who have been impacted personally through personal loss, loss of employment, small business owners who often struggle even in good times, people who are separated from family. Currently there are thousands of Australians trying to get home. Airlines are charging business class fares which the average person cannot afford, as well as having to pay for quarantine when they arrive.

There is a lot of sadness and hardship around the world because of this virus. Whether or not I can travel is a very minor issue compared to what others are going through.

 

[NoSpin]

There is a lot of sadness and hardship around the world because of this virus. Whether or not I can travel is a very minor issue compared to what others are going through.

Thanks for putting this in perspective. You are spot on and thanks for bringing me back to ground.

I'm in a couple high end car forums and sometimes people complain about an issue with their $400K car. My response is always "first world problems". Well my travel issues are just that!

 

[NoSpin]

I'm out of here!!!

Sorry, I was out of line with that comment. I really do apologize. Please come back to this thread. No excuse for my behavior.

I would have edited it out, but I guess the "Edit" button disappears after a certain amount of time.

 

[joe]

When we are able to be vaccinated, we will be. I would welcome restrictions being placed on travel to exclude those who are not vaccinated (as I welcomed our school systems not admitting students who had not taken the course of childhood shots). Home schooling and staying at home rather than traveling are options and valid personal choices.

Hi Alpinista - I hope for you that you will be able to receive the vaccine as soon as is practically possible. From what I understand from your posts, this is a prerequisite for your future travels.

You have been cautious and sensitive in the wording of your wish to see "restrictions being placed on travel to exclude those who are not vaccinated". However, as one who is hoping to be able to travel without having to get vaccinated, and while I am certainly no expert, I think that your wishes about this are possibly a bit premature :

First of all, the comparison between a potential Covid vaccine that still doesn't exist and of which we have no idea of its effectiveness (when even the major aspects of the disease itself are not fully understood), to vaccines like the one for measles (taken as a "childhood shot"), is a bit flawed. The measles vaccine has proven to be enormously effective and has stood the test of time. The disease has mostly been eliminated, if not completely eradicated. It also helps that the measles virus apparently does not mutate over time.

Secondly, while it is reasonable to hope that a vaccine will at least reduce the severity of symptoms for those who might contract the disease, there is still no idea what the value of the vaccine will be with regards transmission of the virus, especially asymptomatic transmission. In other words, the vaccine might take the pressure off hospitals and the medical system, and help in those cases where the infected might otherwise suffer severely - but might not make a significant dent in the spread of the disease. Vaccinated people might unwittingly infect other people, if they are carriers of the virus. This has been known to happen in the case of the whooping cough vaccine. Also, we still don't know if, like with the influenza vaccine, adapted versions will be have to rolled out every new season. And we also don't know if it is at all completely possible from an organizational/logistics point of view, to make this vaccine compulsory and available for anyone wanting to travel (and how exactly is "travel" defined? Should someone from the US west coast have to get vaccinated if he is traveling to the east coast?).

So in my opinion, at least, it is a bit unfair to start wishing for the restriction of unvaccinated travelers with the first appearance of a vaccine, with all the unknowns still far from being solved. Not taking the vaccine should also remain a valid option, as long as there are so many open questions.

Hope we all get back to our travels in the best way possible.

 

[aap519]

I'm still 100% behind getting a vaccine when it becomes available.

Home covid test kits have become available in the states. Are they available in other countries?

Face masks have evolved. I've seen red lips, cat face, dog face, clown face... added to face masks. Now I'm seeing advertising added to face mask. My labor union even came out with a face mask.

I can't wait to travel overseas again.

 

[Alpinista]

You have been cautious and sensitive in the wording of your wish to see "restrictions being placed on travel to exclude those who are not vaccinated". However, as one who is hoping to be able to travel without having to get vaccinated, and while I am certainly no expert, I think that your wishes about this are possibly a bit premature :

Hope we all get back to our travels in the best way possible.

We all share your closing thought and your opening is well-considered. My fear is that without stringent safeguards, none of us are going to travel any time soon.

I'm thinking back to April when it became known that my May trip wasn't going as planned and I thought, "I'll just push the start back to June" -- now, I'm looking at 2021 trips in May (an Alaskan cruise -- not sure how well thought out that is, but committed to it over a year ago); then a late May trip to Italy and a September trip to Italy followed by an October trip to Egypt (these a do-over for trips canceled in 2020)......and not feeling much more than 50-50 that any of these will happen.

Each one of these trips has a different comfort level for me -- the cruise is in the "not at all without a vaccine" level; the Italy portions are pretty comfortable assuming we'll regain access to the airline lounges (fortunate to have that access plus pod seating on the flights and our private residence once in Italy); the Egypt trip is a group trip, including a cruise portion, so also in the "not without a vaccine" category.

The different things that can help each have flaws and are somewhat dependent on others (masking, distancing). The only solution that (I hope) proves far more effective and which is totally under my control is a vaccine. Time will tell.

 

[joe]

The different things that can help each have flaws and are somewhat dependent on others (masking, distancing). The only solution that (I hope) proves far more effective and which is totally under my control is a vaccine. Time will tell.

I sincerely hope that a good vaccine will appear as soon as possible so that you can feel safer about resuming your (postponed) travels.

I didn't quite understand your statement that the vaccine is a factor that is "totally under my control". I would think otherwise : the vaccine is still one of the greatest unknowns in this game, and one might be far off better doing what is basically the most simple and responsible way of action - plan so that your exposure to the virus is minimal. That is, if travel is very important to you. This is much more in your hands than the still-unknown level of security a vaccine might afford.

Just this week "The Lancet" published a report by a group called the "UK's Government Vaccine Taskforce". It's an interesting read, and tries to warn of the trend towards over-optimism with regards the potential Covid vaccine. Here are some excerpts :

"No vaccine in the history of medicine has been as eagerly anticipated as that to protect against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Vaccination is widely regarded as the only true exit strategy from the pandemic that is currently spreading globally."

"However, we do not know that we will ever have a vaccine at all. It is important to guard against complacency and over-optimism. The first generation of vaccines is likely to be imperfect, and we should be prepared that they might not prevent infection but rather reduce symptoms, and, even then, might not work for everyone or for long."

"The most advanced vaccines, such as those developed by AstraZeneca and the University of Oxford, BioNTech and Pfizer, and Janssen, are based on novel formats for which we have little experience of their use as vaccines, although the initial immunogenicity and safety data are encouraging. Vaccines based on frequently used vaccine formats, such as adjuvanted protein vaccines developed by Novavax, and by GSK and Sanofi, and inactivated whole viruses developed by Valneva, will not be available until late in 2021."

"A major challenge is that the global manufacturing capacity for vaccines is vastly inadequate for the billions of doses that are needed, and the UK manufacturing capability to date has been equally scarce."

"No-one has ever done mass vaccination of adults anywhere in the world before and the two-dose regimen, plus cold-chain restrictions for some vaccines, adds to the complexity of this deployment operation."

"There will not be one successful vaccine, or one single country, that is able to supply the world. We urgently need international cooperation to pool risks and costs, address barriers to access, and scale up the manufacturing capacity to produce sufficient doses to protect everyone at risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection globally."

"The SARS-CoV-2 virus is likely to evolve, and other zoonotic pathogens are likely to pose future risks. China, Europe, the USA, and the UK need to work together. "

IAC, good luck.

 

[wco81]

I sincerely hope that a good vaccine will appear as soon as possible so that you can feel safer about resuming your (postponed) travels.

I didn't quite understand your statement that the vaccine is a factor that is "totally under my control". I would think otherwise : the vaccine is still one of the greatest unknowns in this game, and one might be far off better doing what is basically the most simple and responsible way of action - plan so that your exposure to the virus is minimal. That is, if travel is very important to you. This is much more in your hands than the still-unknown level of security a vaccine might afford.

J

I think this is what you should be doing even if vaccines are proven to have some effectiveness.

The expectation seems to be that these first vaccines will prevent infections from spreading to your lower respiratory tract (lungs) and other parts of the body such as major organs.

But it won't prevent your upper respiratory tract (sinuses, mouth) from getting infected or prevent you from infecting others.

Reason may be that the antibodies which these first vaccines will generate either don't reach the upper respiratory tract or last very long on these mucosa tissue.

In effect, the vaccines could reduce covid to a cold but it would still be dangerous in that people could infect more vulnerable people who either haven't been vaccinated or hasn't raised as effective an immune response.

So people who get vaccinated should still expect to wear masks and avoid large gathering situations. Riding packed subway trains for long rides wouldn't be ideal nor say going to bars and nightclubs where there may be some reckless people (think college age people) who either don't get vaccinated or don't take precautions.